tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post8267125300520460763..comments2023-09-29T05:32:04.308-07:00Comments on StrangePegs: Deliberate vs...: A Post About Thinking (Part Three)Andrew Leonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-81400086862010744252013-02-05T22:48:33.639-08:002013-02-05T22:48:33.639-08:00Lee: Well, as for the thing with my father, it was...Lee: Well, as for the thing with my father, it was a much more concrete thing than that as it was a geography question. We looked at the map, a current map, and he told me it was wrong. There was no issue of interpretation involved. He refused to acknowledge the hard evidence that was in front of him. It's somewhat like refusing to believe that the Earth is a spheroid or that it's not the center of the universe. Sometimes things we used to believe were true just turn out to be wrong, and some people refuse to acknowledge that they could ever be wrong about anything.<br /><br />As for the gun thing, I know there are many different factors involved, and most of them are valid to some extent or another. However, some issues have a greater weight to them...Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-7033160686429464342013-02-05T22:20:36.417-08:002013-02-05T22:20:36.417-08:00You can have two drastically opposing sides where ...You can have two drastically opposing sides where each contains very logical arguments depending on sources of information, goals each wants to attain, and many other factors regarding the background of the believers. An undecided person in the middle may have a difficult time deciding which argument is correct and will probably resort to emotion or favoritism regarding who else supports on side or another. I won't say that one side is more or less logical or rational that the other, but that they are so only from where they are standing.<br /><br />Like the cited gun issue one side may be arguing with experiences and certain statistics and the logical aspects of these arguments are legitimate to some extent but not taking into account a historical and constitutional perspective an opposing side might be taking. They are really arguing different issues about one thing and it can be difficult to come any resolution in a case like that.<br /><br />Or in your 3rd grade example, of which I don't the specifics, the "facts" may once again be coming from different perspectives or generations. From what I hear, current history books are teaching some things differently from the way I learned them. My facts may be different from the facts that my grandchildren might get taught. For example, the way we look at Columbus, incursion of Europeans on the indigenous people, the Civil War, Pearl Harbor--there may be certain seemingly conflicting facts that if one analyzed them impassionately they'd see they are both true in some sense. <br /><br />It's like the Pluto example, but less scientific and based more on cultural changes or similarly human thought movements. The victors may write some of the history, but there are also other stories coming from many perspectives. <br /><br />Problem is we get too much information too quickly that is presented as authoritive and a lot of us don't have the time or don't care to take the time to carefully look at every detail to come to an absolute truth. Probably because in many cases there is no absolute truth in worldly things.<br /><br />Lee <br /><a href="http://wrotebyrote.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Wrote By Rote</a><br />An A to Z Co-host blog<br />Twitter: @AprilA2Z <br />Arlee Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11663942782929929334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-81300888673988536862013-02-05T21:07:37.700-08:002013-02-05T21:07:37.700-08:00Jeanne: I'm quite certain that humans are over...Jeanne: I'm quite certain that humans are overly concerned with their own individual feelings.<br />Some of the most fascinating of the research showed that people that had emotional difficulties due to brain injuries were actually incapable of making even simple decisions.<br /><br />Rusty: Or like the one that says that NASA has proved we're missing a day from the universe proving that God exists because he stopped time for a day? Yeah, I get it.<br /><br />Susan: That still sound more like sympathy. Empathy is where the other person's feelings actually become your own, not just the recognition of the other person's feelings and reacting to them.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-62889246701529877722013-02-05T20:10:29.056-08:002013-02-05T20:10:29.056-08:00Terrific post, but now I'm very concerned. Aft...Terrific post, but now I'm very concerned. After reading about your father, now I have some concern than my father may have been living a secret double life.<br /><br />Let's see. Empathy. To me, that's being able to relate and respond appropriately to another person's feelings. You hurt, I cry with you. That sort of thing. Most autistic people and sociopaths are incapable of feeling empathy for other people.<br /><br />In light of reading this post, I kinda think you might like the post I did yesterday about racism.Susan Flett Swiderskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09425315552148200073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-17499544193852456452013-02-05T19:45:56.474-08:002013-02-05T19:45:56.474-08:00Andrew - I should really be writing. But it's ...Andrew - I should really be writing. But it's one of those 'made up' facts that the internet is full of. She's received it via email several times, like the one that says that Mars is about to appear in our sky and be larger than the moon for the first time in 1000 years or something. <br /><br />But since it's in her head - and I don't really mean to pick on my mom, I'm just sayin - it's really hard to get it out. <br /><br />And things like TLC, Discovery, and The HIstory Channel don't help anymore, since so much of what they put out is faux-documentaries about mermaids, ancient aliens, faked moon landings, whatever. I'm constantly having to argue about stupid things all the time.Rusty Carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09887821877521181811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-35654559631199358152013-02-05T18:54:04.808-08:002013-02-05T18:54:04.808-08:00I'd like to believe I don't make choices b...I'd like to believe I don't make choices based on emotion but if those studies are accurate, then it looks like I have. Oh well. Like your teacher said, don't just accept what people tell you and you'll be all right.<br /><br />It's interesting that empathy is so rare in humans. Perhaps we get too caught up in our own feelings.J E Fritzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03372746219262163566noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-34841106254655672922013-02-05T18:36:57.951-08:002013-02-05T18:36:57.951-08:00Jo: I have another story about people believing th...Jo: I have another story about people believing the wrong stuff, but there wasn't room for it. I'll tell y'all about it one day.<br /><br />Jess: They do. (Despite the missing word :/ )<br /><br />Rusty: How many spiders do people eat in their sleep? Actually, I once saw a cockroach fly into a friend's open mouth while he was asleep. So gross. We woke him up because we were laughing so hard.<br /><br />I do think people can (possibly) be taught to think... if that teaching happens early enough. We just don't do that in school, though, because it's hard.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-56506463677712070132013-02-05T16:57:53.998-08:002013-02-05T16:57:53.998-08:00Actually, I think it was me that read too fast the...Actually, I think it was me that read too fast the first time. As always, good job explaining. Rusty Carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09887821877521181811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-79774870181992993572013-02-05T15:35:57.513-08:002013-02-05T15:35:57.513-08:00Good stuff there... I can actually type now becaus...Good stuff there... I can actually type now because I have my computer up and not my phone, but I'm supposed to be writing right now, not hanging out on your blog, so I'll be brief.<br /><br />I think you may have switched terms at least once in your paragraph regarding sympathy/empathy. I may have read to fast, but I'd go back over real quick to be certain. It might be part of Briane's confusion there.<br /><br />And I mentioned in an earlier post about how I think people can be taught to think critically, and eliminating most of the crazy assed stuff that people tend to come up with.<br /><br />I'd guess that deliberate, careful thinkers didn't do so well when a tiger would pop up in their den and start ripping things apart. So I'd guess doing something fast has often been more important of a survival trait through pre-history than it is in modern times. That same impulse action that saved you from getting eaten by that tiger doesn't translate so well into picking out the best investment portfolio, or determining which brand of toothpaste is most effective at preventing gum disease. <br /><br />My point being that the things that have shaped us a s a species don't necessarily translate to being a modern, civilized person.<br /><br />Anyway, great advice, I don't want to be that guy... If I have one more argument with my mother about how many spiders a person eats in their sleep I'm going to pull my hair out. Rusty Carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09887821877521181811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-48361308684523640312013-02-05T15:07:34.382-08:002013-02-05T15:07:34.382-08:00Wow, I think those last two sentences say it all :...Wow, I think those last two sentences say it all :)Jesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14121018905141253640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-38548123534457565462013-02-05T14:14:34.200-08:002013-02-05T14:14:34.200-08:00Actually I find this blog pretty frightening to kn...Actually I find this blog pretty frightening to know people can be told incorrect information which they will believe in the teeth of genuine facts. I have come across this a lot of times, especially as I know I'm always right! The example with your step dad is very worrying and it certainly explains why you can give people proven facts until you are blue in the face and they will not accept them above previous beliefs.<br /><br />Empathy and sympathy, hmmmm. Difficult one that, I always believed I was empathic now I am not so sure any more.<br /><br />Great blog and certainly thought provoking. <br /><br /><a href="http://henderson-jo.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">JO ON FOOD, MY TRAVELS AND A SCENT OF CHOCOLATE</a><br />Johttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14087140585742801854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-74960098130479497972013-02-05T11:52:00.182-08:002013-02-05T11:52:00.182-08:00Shannon: I understand the reasoning behind the dow...Shannon: I understand the reasoning behind the downgrade, but I will never stop thinking of it as an actual planet.<br /><br />Alex: You know, it's kind of distressing how completely non-rational people are.<br /><br />L.G.: The empathy stuff is very interesting. Especially so since no one is really exactly sure how it works/why it is.<br /><br />Michael: You, then, would be one of the few. One of the few...<br /><br />Briane: The gun thing was just an example. An example because it's one I know of that has happened in many cases in real life, just as there are examples of people that had been anti-death penalty until they lost someone to violence and suddenly wanted the death penalty.<br /><br />Like you, I used to be pro-death penalty, too, but that was back when I had a more idealized view of the system and was unaware of the number of people that have been put to death that have later been exonerated.<br /><br />If I can think of a more suitable way to describe empathy, I'll do a post on it. It's one of those distinctions that's hard to put into words that make sense. Sympathy is "I will feel for you," and empathy is "I will feel with you," but that's really hard to grasp.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-73240339123899155722013-02-05T10:03:57.333-08:002013-02-05T10:03:57.333-08:00This was a great post. It really got me thinking,...This was a great post. It really got me thinking, and I enjoy that.<br /><br />I do take issue with your idea that someone who suffers gun violence might change their stance on gun control. A bit. There's an old saying that goes something like "A liberal is a conservative that got arrested. A conservative is a liberal that bought a house."<br /><br />The point being that you change your mind when your incentives and interests change. Most gun owners I know would argue that if they'd been around, or been more careful, or been more something or other, the gun death wouldn't have occurred -- so they wouldn't agree to outlaw guns, they'd just blame people who weren't them.<br /><br />I've actually changed my viewpoints on some significant issues over the years. I used to be pro-death penalty, and now I'm against it, in part because I came to realize that our system cannot perfectly identify the guilty (a fact) and came to believe that killing was wrong if it was done in retribution (a belief.) I used to be quite conservative, in fact, but my empathy (sympathy? I'm not sure I've understood the distinction) has caused me to rethink certain propositions. Like health care.<br /><br />Great essay, though. Brianehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01616494058636881575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-90210275063615971702013-02-05T08:22:21.830-08:002013-02-05T08:22:21.830-08:00I can be swayed by evidence quite easily. If someo...I can be swayed by evidence quite easily. If someone doesn't have evidence though and continues to press a point, I can swiftly become onery. Bring me evidence, and I am a reasonable human being willing to change my mind and admit when I'm wrong. No evidence and there's the door, pal.Michael Offutt, Phantom Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10557969104886174930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-32636234471371593532013-02-05T06:33:29.307-08:002013-02-05T06:33:29.307-08:00This is why I refuse to get into an argument about...This is why I refuse to get into an argument about politics or religion or football. I'm not going to change anyone's mind, and they aren't going to change mine. They're just wrong and I'm right. :P<br /><br />But interesting thoughts there about empathetic thinkers...Luanne G. Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15762881276976395955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-54015856059194473952013-02-05T04:51:05.764-08:002013-02-05T04:51:05.764-08:00Shannon, you stick to your guns!
Arguments and fac...Shannon, you stick to your guns!<br />Arguments and facts won't change someone's mind if they've dug in with their beliefs? No kidding! See that every day.Alex J. Cavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09770065693345181702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-75251680683719304712013-02-04T23:58:06.664-08:002013-02-04T23:58:06.664-08:00My kids will one day tell how their mother refused...My kids will one day tell how their mother refused to accept that Pluto was no longer a planet. That's an emotional argument. ;-p<br /><br />Shannon at <a href="http://thewarriormuse.com/" rel="nofollow">The Warrior Muse</a>Shannon Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00934641808195675935noreply@blogger.com