tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post8064833740983494868..comments2023-09-29T05:32:04.308-07:00Comments on StrangePegs: Peer Editing (or Teaching Kids To Fail) (an IWSG post)Andrew Leonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-9502918630682330442018-02-12T10:04:31.240-08:002018-02-12T10:04:31.240-08:00Carla: Yeah, I know what you mean. My oldest son d...Carla: Yeah, I know what you mean. My oldest son did, actually, have that problem from time to time, where people would mark things on his paper for no other reason than that they couldn't find anything to mark. Just mark random stuff; yeah, that's a good plan.<br /><br />The thing is, I don't think teachers do it to be lazy, per se, but because they -think- it's a good learning process for the kids. Which is CRAZY, because all it does is reinforce bad behaviors.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-31618348279266245252018-02-12T06:31:01.914-08:002018-02-12T06:31:01.914-08:00Peer editing is wrong in so many ways. My daughte...Peer editing is wrong in so many ways. My daughter is just like your son. Problem is...she had some people in the class who were jealous of her and would "correct" the craziest things in her paper. SHe knew what she was doing, but getting a paper back with all kinds of red notes made her doubt her ability instead of learn from it. I hate and it and I'll be honest, I consider it a "lazy" way for teachers to run a class. Whatever happened to the teacher, the trained person, giving the advice. That is how it should be. None of these other examples are comparable to a high school or college English class, because the students often don't get to choose who does the editing. You are stuck with the other 20 kids in class, any number of whom may have no idea how to write. If you are a writer, the editor is trained and you have some say in who does the job.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08719968442012701959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-69712674236095392632015-02-07T09:13:56.162-08:002015-02-07T09:13:56.162-08:00Briane: Same kid, yes. I think this story, in part...Briane: Same kid, yes. I think this story, in particular, is one that you'll like.<br /><br />Editing is tough and, probably, editors should try specifically to not edit style at all. Voice comes out of style, after all. I suppose, though, one thing that editors who work for publishers are doing is trying to change the voice of the author to some voice that fits with what the publisher wants. And that's going into a different topic altogether. At any rate, authors would do better by themselves if they learned the technical parts of the writing so that they could use it they want to... you know, rather than driving a car around as if it's a bumper car.<br /><br />I like long sentences, too, just by the way. They take more work for the reader, though, so I get that some (non)readers can't handle them.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-76130813498000570792015-02-07T09:07:06.132-08:002015-02-07T09:07:06.132-08:00Michael: I don't disagree with that. We've...Michael: I don't disagree with that. We've reached some kind of weird point where the right to believe whatever we want to believe somehow equates to the beliefs being valid in some kind of factual sense. And, I have to say, when we allow politicians to spout off in interviews about how vaccinations can be harmful... well, I'm sorry, that that guy is even in office is beyond me. It's like, in a lot of ways, we're aspiring to stupidity.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-54009836603350004422015-02-07T07:14:11.154-08:002015-02-07T07:14:11.154-08:00Boy, you get a lot of comments!
Editing your own ...Boy, you get a lot of comments!<br /><br />Editing your own work is tough, whether or not you know the rules of grammar and punctuation. We tend to read what we THINK is there and not what is really there, when it's something we've written and rewritten.<br /><br />Letting it sit for a while can help, or having a few trusted people read it. Or just getting better at it, as you said. Writing isn't all about writing, anymore than football quarterbacking is all about long passes. So writers have to learn to edit.<br /><br />What's REALLY bothersome about this is that your kid's schoolteacher didn't look at the 'edits' and correct THEM. It's disheartening to realize how many people make it to freshman year (or farther) without any real idea about punctuation and grammar rules. (I'll count myself in there. I'm pretty haphazard about it, or was before you began reviewing my books.)<br /><br />On the 'style' points, I disagree with editors almost entirely. Long sentences, short sentences, voice: those things are HARD to edit. I tend to use long sentences. One reason I've enjoyed my story-a-day project is because it's teaching me to edit so well. But I still LIKE long sentences, and so when I get a rejection from a story site (as I did) that says "the sentences are too long and complex" I get annoyed That's a STYLE thing.<br /><br />I just finished a couple edits of my book, and most of them were between style and punctuation. Most were helpful -- things like asking me to flesh out a scene more, or cut down on the confusion by using speech tags. But that's very different from "I don't like the way you structure sentences."<br /><br />If this is the kid that wrote that story for my site, you're right: he IS talented. But all your kids are talented.Brianehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01616494058636881575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-75884613714137937182015-02-06T09:49:26.837-08:002015-02-06T09:49:26.837-08:00Again, I find myself agreeing with everything you ...Again, I find myself agreeing with everything you are saying here. But I would like to add that respecting the opinions of people who are not experts in a field is leading America down a dangerous path. In particular, I have in mind the measles outbreak. Science and medicine experts tell us that vaccines are necessary to keep these dangerous diseases in check. But people have been allowed to "opt out" based on belief that is not founded on science. Rather, the evidence if any is anecdotal (I heard from someone that someone said that this may cause autism). It's the same kind of thing you are pointing out here with your son's writing. "I hear that this is the way it's supposed to be so I'm going to correct your paper and point out all the things he did wrong but aren't actually wrong because I don't know what I'm talking about."Michael Offutt, Phantom Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10557969104886174930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-84086758672042775982015-02-05T19:24:49.584-08:002015-02-05T19:24:49.584-08:00TAS: Yes, a critique should say what is bad -and- ...TAS: Yes, a critique should say what is bad -and- what is good. These weren't critiques, though, just editing.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-29837192759299097212015-02-05T14:27:41.105-08:002015-02-05T14:27:41.105-08:00Constructive criticism (of which editing is a form...Constructive criticism (of which editing is a form) is a skill well-worth learning. What people need to do it well is tact. Few have it.<br /><br />At any rate, critique should be about a lot more than pointing out mistakes - whether they're truly mistakes or not.The Armchair Squidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10739833215220853127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-711037881419681432015-02-05T06:12:10.009-08:002015-02-05T06:12:10.009-08:00Jennifer: Not just subjective but objectively wron...Jennifer: Not just subjective but objectively wrong. There's a huge difference in that.<br />I will be sure to let people know when it's available.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-11014248445694007882015-02-05T05:33:56.488-08:002015-02-05T05:33:56.488-08:00It's hard when someone criticizes our kids:) I...It's hard when someone criticizes our kids:) I agree, get feedback but sometimes your CP's comments are subjective. I look forward to reading your son's story!Jennifer Haweshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09180114125342729705noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-65840024231976947002015-02-04T18:04:25.152-08:002015-02-04T18:04:25.152-08:00TAS: It's hard when you're the only one do...TAS: It's hard when you're the only one doing something the correct way, like maintaining the speed limit when everyone around you is zipping past. I have to look all the time, now, at "your" and "you're" to make sure it's the correct version because it's so misused. It's not automatic for me anymore.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-74598541111769693842015-02-04T17:37:13.976-08:002015-02-04T17:37:13.976-08:00Your point about learning the incorrect correction...Your point about learning the incorrect correction made me laugh. Back when I taught EFL in Japan, I'd see the same mistakes so many times in their writing because they'd all learned the same incorrect way. After a while, I'd start to question if, perhaps, I was the one who was wrong.The Armchair Squidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10739833215220853127noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-89948795427921700362015-02-04T17:14:29.073-08:002015-02-04T17:14:29.073-08:00Shannon: The problem with contests like that is th...Shannon: The problem with contests like that is that, generally speaking, the "judges" are no more qualified than the people entering. They are peers but have been given more weight by being called judges, so we give their words more credibility than they deserve,Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-46925963187237999482015-02-04T17:06:57.381-08:002015-02-04T17:06:57.381-08:00Hart: Yeah, that almost never happens, not in the ...Hart: Yeah, that almost never happens, not in the public school system. Maybe if there were enough teachers so that individual teachers actually had classes of manageable sizes... Yeah, that's not ever going to happen.<br />But, anyway...<br />Yes, if the students were being graded on their ability to correctly edit the other papers, that would change things, because, then, it would actually be a learning exercise.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-79560331223023690622015-02-04T17:03:10.980-08:002015-02-04T17:03:10.980-08:00Janie: See, something is wrong when you have to pu...Janie: See, something is wrong when you have to purposefully put in mistakes like it's some kind of Easter egg hunt.<br />And it sucks to be the best person at something for any kind of group work in school. I HATED that. Everyone wanted to be in my group, then I ended up doing all the work.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-5075753717165167222015-02-04T16:50:26.961-08:002015-02-04T16:50:26.961-08:00Lee: Theoretically, beta readers and CPs are compl...Lee: Theoretically, beta readers and CPs are completely different things. Beta readers generally get a manuscript after it's been seen by CPs, and they are just there to say whether they like it or not. CPs are usually other writers while betas are usually just readers.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-15369319549515337252015-02-04T16:47:57.654-08:002015-02-04T16:47:57.654-08:00Elsie: Oh, yeah, the smiley faces! How ever did pe...Elsie: Oh, yeah, the smiley faces! How ever did people say "negative" things before smiley faces existed to soften the blow?<br /><br />I hope she can hold onto her style. A unique style can be hard to retain when people respond negatively, which people almost always do when something is different. At least, at first.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-22440207515176280352015-02-04T16:45:51.643-08:002015-02-04T16:45:51.643-08:00While I don't agree with peer editing in schoo...While I don't agree with peer editing in school (luckily, I never had to do that), I do appreciate my critique partners. None of them are correcting my grammar, though. Each one brings something different to the table. One's great with character development, one with the heart behind the story, etc. They catch onto a detail I might have missed. So I do appreciate their feedback. I'm perfectly fine with ignoring what I don't agree with. However, I remember the first time I entered a contest and got the critiques back. Those did shake my confidence, and it took me quite awhile to be able to deal with criticism like what I got from one judge. I have a bit more confidence now, and I take what I want from it. For kids, and those with less confidence, it's a big deal, and can definitely shatter confidence and ability. So, while I like my critique group, I recommend people at least be familiar with the other people and their writing to know what they're entering into, and if it will work for them. Or to avoid it until that confidence exists.Shannon Lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00934641808195675935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-30515986209150396492015-02-04T16:45:05.965-08:002015-02-04T16:45:05.965-08:00I'm a big fan of peer editing, but I was never...I'm a big fan of peer editing, but I was never subjected to it until grad school. I think what the teacher should have done is taken the "corrected" papers so people who incorrectly corrected could learn that THEY were wrong and then students would have gotten back a paper that clearly had what should and should not have been corrected. My best class on the matter did exactly that--we got graded on our paper (final draft) and also on the feedback we gave two peers on THEIR papers.Hart Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17599570189253229318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-75126952095333308822015-02-04T15:30:20.535-08:002015-02-04T15:30:20.535-08:00I hate that peer editing shit. It's a load of ...I hate that peer editing shit. It's a load of crap. All through public school, everyone wanted The Hurricane to edit their papers so she would make corrections for them. Because papers HAD to be edited and corrected, The Hurricane purposely put errors in her essays so she could correct them. Fortunately, when she went to a private prep school, that was the end of the peer editing crap. I've been telling authors that too many cooks spoil the soup. All these writing groups and critique partners cause writers to doubt themselves. This post is very good.<br /><br />Love,<br />JanieJanie Junebughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10573607241326291404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-14660569264601685122015-02-04T15:21:26.860-08:002015-02-04T15:21:26.860-08:00That's why there are professional editors. If...That's why there are professional editors. If teachers are going to have peer editing then they need to go back and analyze and discuss the editing, whether it was correctly done, and how it should have been done. If the editing isn't edited and corrected then there is a learning disruption.<br /><br />Beta reading should not be editing and in that context can be helpful. Then it's mostly a matter of opinion and objective party observation.<br /><br />Arlee Bird<br />A to Z Challenge Co-host<br /><a href="http://tossingitout.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">Tossing It Out</a>Arlee Birdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11663942782929929334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-1332765811316844382015-02-04T14:46:07.018-08:002015-02-04T14:46:07.018-08:00My daughter went through the same thing with her p...My daughter went through the same thing with her peer editing. Her style was unique, she kept her sentences well structured but still, her classmates tore it apart bit by bit and that made her doubt herself. Unlike your son (Go him!!) She had legitimate corrections to make, but not nearly as many as were so kindly pointed out by her peers. (Complete with girly smiley faces all over the page haha)<br /><br />Take care,<br /><br /><a href="http://mockturtlemusings.com" rel="nofollow">Elsie</a>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-69098588921150091802015-02-04T13:30:18.958-08:002015-02-04T13:30:18.958-08:00Crystal: All of the great works of literature have...Crystal: All of the great works of literature have been solo endeavors. No critique partners. Following the logic that CPs make books better, we should have even greater works of literature coming out since the advent of CPs; however, the greatest current novels are still the work of an author working alone.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-65955920959871726692015-02-04T13:22:58.267-08:002015-02-04T13:22:58.267-08:00I agree with the learning the rules for yourself a...I agree with the learning the rules for yourself and where to break them, but I will disagree on the critiquing in the instance where your critiquers are grounded and regularly studying the art. Amazing critique partners will focus on story, arc, and other specific industry related aspects, not so much on the grammar. (Because they realize they're not line editors.) I think the best critiquing comes from at least a group of three, and paying attention to where their suggestions overlap. The rest is just mush. Crystal Collierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03912469552483168148noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-59165779879713161992015-02-04T12:58:02.792-08:002015-02-04T12:58:02.792-08:00Pat: It's good to teach kids grammar and punct...Pat: It's good to teach kids grammar and punctuation so that they can self-edit. That's really about it.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.com