tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post6965050920484667529..comments2023-09-29T05:32:04.308-07:00Comments on StrangePegs: The Religion of Writing: Part Seven -- The PriesthoodAndrew Leonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-90198120112012534122013-08-27T13:45:46.210-07:002013-08-27T13:45:46.210-07:00Stephanie: Oh, and thank you for commenting. It...Stephanie: Oh, and thank you for commenting. It's very nice to actually hear an editor agree with me.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-36405379145125591372013-08-27T13:45:04.207-07:002013-08-27T13:45:04.207-07:00Stephanie: Well, that's the thing: it doesn...Stephanie: Well, that's the thing: it doesn't matter if it's the best story ever if no one can read it. People are frequently all "it's the story that matters," and, while I agree with that in sentiment, from a practical standpoint, it just doesn't work. Bottom line is that if you want to be a writer, learn to do it.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-75553023384266220392013-08-27T08:53:42.802-07:002013-08-27T08:53:42.802-07:00What a great post: all of it. I don't know if ...What a great post: all of it. I don't know if I'd have agreed so much if you hadn't added the caveat about most people needing the help of an editor, though. I get a lot of unsolicited manuscripts from people, since I am an editor, and let me tell you — they are dire. You'd think people who call themselves "writers" would bother to learn the basics of grammar, but what I get looks like it was written by the proverbial hundred monkeys at a hundred typewriters. These guys (the writers, not the monkeys) run their manuscript through spell-check, call it good, and pass it to me. I get lost in copy-editing even though they actually want story feedback. I just can't get past the errors.<br /><br />But I agree: my editing skills are nothing special. I'm like a dental hygienist, who wishes people would take better care of their teeth even if it would put her out of a job. If I can do it, you (people) can do it.Stephaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02187854108656107958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-64825791049300148622013-08-25T17:09:27.563-07:002013-08-25T17:09:27.563-07:00Eve: I've read a couple or few of those books,...Eve: I've read a couple or few of those books, too. One guy actually said to me that he was only concerned with getting his book out there as quickly as possible (so that he could start getting rich off of it) so he didn't bother to do any editing on it. At all. Not himself or anyone else. It was just write a draft and BAM! It's a horrible way to do things and perpetuates the idea of indie books being crap.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-70499960980257809702013-08-25T12:32:22.720-07:002013-08-25T12:32:22.720-07:00I never let anyone tell me what to think about any...I never let anyone tell me what to think about anything, but, just like anyone, my opinions can be influenced by what someone says. As far as priests and the like go, (and yes, this is a personal opinion) I think they're the ones going to 'hell in a hand basket'..(except for the ones who get no hand basket, lol!)..even though I don't believe in hell, or heaven for that matter. I just don't think that most of them are decent humans...what do I know though? <br />As for writing and editing, I've read a couple of absolutely atrocious ebooks...I mean, so bad that I'm embarrassed for the 'author'. I don't think any amount of editing, by anyone, will help these stories. The writer obviously thought they were okay, cause they put them out there, and had the nerve to charge money for them! <br />That's the trouble with self publishing...although I don't think that there can be as many 'books' as badly written as the one I'm referring to, I'm sure it's not the only poorly written ebook in existence.<br />When I decide to publish something I may go the ebook route, and hopefully I will have learned enough about editing that I won't have someone think as ill of my writing as I do about some of the stuff I've read. <br />I agree with you and your wife that we have the power to self-edit. After all, aren't we all reasonably intelligent creatures, with the ability to learn and apply what we've learned? <br />E. M. Prokophttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12395951217528199963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-64352164668893288052013-08-25T11:13:34.837-07:002013-08-25T11:13:34.837-07:00TAS: Well, that's part of it; most "profe...TAS: Well, that's part of it; most "professional" editors don't have anything more to qualify them to do editing than a degree in English. I'd had more actual editing experience while I was still in high school than at least 80% of "editors" out there. [I did work for a law firm editing depositions and other documents. It was a good place to start, I think.]Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-32481286046276848052013-08-25T06:28:59.151-07:002013-08-25T06:28:59.151-07:00I can say that my personal difficulty in editing m...I can say that my personal difficulty in editing my own work is a lack of emotional detachment. I'm vain and I fall in love with my own writing too quickly. I find it helpful to ask someone if I'm conveying what I intend. Mind you, I've never gone so far as to bring anything to a professional editor. I usually just ask my wife. She's read more and better books than most of them have anyway. Then again, my own publishing aspirations are fairly modest. The Armchair Squidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13509001761075530940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-2659624361669578442013-08-24T12:27:28.570-07:002013-08-24T12:27:28.570-07:00Briane: Editing is tough but so is writing. Editin...Briane: Editing is tough but so is writing. Editing is just another skill that can be learned, and, actually, the more proficient you are at writing, the less editing you should need. Which is kind of the point.<br /><br />And, also (rather than respond to the rest of what you said directly), choice is hard. Most people don't want to make their own choices; they just want someone "in charge" to tell them "this is good" or "this is bad" and just go with that. Which is why I said "it's not all their fault." It's not.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-65253953534831937272013-08-24T09:05:21.583-07:002013-08-24T09:05:21.583-07:00Editing is TOUGH. That's why authors don't...Editing is TOUGH. That's why authors don't want to do it, I think. That's why I don't want to do it, anyway.<br /><br />I have this feeling that the way I write it the first time is the best, and I dislike rewriting for the sole purpose of rewriting. But I've been trying to edit more of my stuff before it gets posted nowadays, really edit -- not just spell check but edit and think it through, and I think some of it is better for it.<br /><br />Blog posts I tend to not edit at all, mostly -- at least not the first one you read. I write 'em and post 'em and then read it and maybe make some changes. Stories I edit more and more now, trying to figure out what works and what doesn't. <br /><br />Like you said, a lot depends on what the author's voice is. Certain posts and essays and stories of mine are MEANT to be rambling, as that's a style I like. I read a story on McSweeney's, yesterday, "Versions" that reminded me of my writing, only was about a billion times better. It's hard to imagine many editors wanting that story to get through them, but the way it was written (you should check it out!) was beautiful. <br /><br />So I agree with you, and your Gospel of Editing has gotten through to me. I figure it might never been my strong suit, but I'm working on it. (That, by the way, is part of why I started my 250-word-exactly stories: to make sure that I was paying attention to what, actually, needed to be in the story. When I started it, many stories needed to be pared down quite a bit. Lately, the last two I've written, I've had to ADD stuff to, which is a different kind of editing.)<br /><br />As for why priests, politicians, etc., seek that authority, it's because of that: authority. I always said it's tough to be a small government Republican who gets elected to the federal government, because true conservatism means devolving power away from a centralized government; so Republicans who get to the presidency or the Senate tend to not seek to focus on a limited federal government at all, because nobody voluntarily gives up power.<br /><br />Priests who say "Well, here's my thoughts but interpret it for yourself" would be delegating authority to their flock. And if a priest says "Your opinion is as valuable as mine," then why have him around? That's what they fear, I think.<br /><br />PEOPLE, though, transfer power to priests, editors, publishers, and politicians in part for simplicity. It's hard to choose books on our own, so we want someone to filter them for us. In the past, that was publishers and bookstores: by putting books in big stacks in the front of stores, we were told their relative worth. Now, we have Goodreads and Amazon's "People who bought this..." to help us with that. Brianehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01616494058636881575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-8919022946429438382013-08-23T21:11:44.263-07:002013-08-23T21:11:44.263-07:00Jo: Well, on the one hand, those people definitely...Jo: Well, on the one hand, those people definitely need editorial help; on the other, Lovecraft, for instance, would tell them that they shouldn't be seeking publication if they were making errors like that.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-46916331498491206942013-08-23T19:56:47.637-07:002013-08-23T19:56:47.637-07:00I am not sure about the function of editors or pro...I am not sure about the function of editors or proof readers, but from the point of view of a reader, I wish someone would do something, particularly with ebooks. I recently read a book with some glaring mistakes, such as ingenious being used when it should have been ingenuous. Was it a typo or did the author not know the difference? There were other similar errors in the same book, drove me nuts. I have done some proofing for 2 authors now and I hope I have helped.Johttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14087140585742801854noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-21146674288515963792013-08-23T18:12:15.753-07:002013-08-23T18:12:15.753-07:00L.G.: My point is not that they are not, can not b...L.G.: My point is not that they are not, can not be helpful. The point is that the idea that they are a requirement, are necessary is a falsehood.<br /><br />Rusty: That's true; there are different types of editors. Lovecraft would have said that you weren't ready to be published until you were ready to dispense with all of them. Tolkien certainly had no one his equal in his day and felt all editorial changes forced on him hurt his story, like having to break LotR into three books.<br /><br />The point, in the end, is that the author's goal should be to overcome the need for editorial oversight, which is actually a possibility that publishing houses won't admit exists, because they want control over the final product.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-37614991505689226302013-08-23T13:00:55.693-07:002013-08-23T13:00:55.693-07:00Lou Anders, one of the more respected editors in t...Lou Anders, one of the more respected editors in the biz, says if you ask him about grammar you'll just get a blank stare from him. He's much more interested in story than the line level stuff, I suppose a distinction should be made, as there are copyeditors, line editors, story editors... all having different functions at a big house. <br /><br />Still I recall a podcast I heard late last year, or early this one, I forget now, where they asked the author what the biggest difference between being an aspiring author and a professionally published one (from a major house) and she said that the conversations with her peers changed from one about sentence structure and micro-details, to ones about story. <br /><br />The take away from that could be that pros have a better grasp of the fundamentals than newer authors do, and therefore don't have to discuss those things, but I think the point she was trying to make is that an amazing story will offer some forgiveness for less than perfect prose, but prefect prose will not overcome a bad story. <br /><br />I'm not really trying to make a point here, I just enjoy repeating that anecdote.Rusty Carlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09887821877521181811noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-52564594346698593002013-08-23T12:29:04.060-07:002013-08-23T12:29:04.060-07:00I don't know...my critique partners have helpe...I don't know...my critique partners have helped me realize some of my writing sins (and agents who have rejected my work too). I wasn't born an excellent writer. But they are helping me get better by pointing out things I don't see for myself. I hopefully do the same for them. And not just typos and stuff, but big story elements too, like where I'm too nice to my character and should make her work harder. Maybe that's a writer flaw I can't overcome on my own, but with help I can hopefully be redeemed. :)Luanne G. Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15762881276976395955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-68526342974655597082013-08-23T08:25:16.991-07:002013-08-23T08:25:16.991-07:00Alex: The problem there, Alex, is that you'd b...Alex: The problem there, Alex, is that you'd be demonstrably incorrect. Many of the greatest works in literature were accomplished without editorial oversight. The first editors weren't even there to edit the author but to make sure the people that set the copy hadn't made any mistakes.<br />And, maybe, you have one of those exceptions as a pastor; I don't know. What I do know, though, is that lots of pastors say that because that's what they're supposed to say, but, if you go talk to them, and you have a different interpretation than they do, they're going to tell you how you're wrong and an uncomfortably lot of them are going to fall back on the "I went to school for this" excuse as to why they're right.<br /><br />Tina: I'm not saying that a second set of eyes can't be helpful. But that set of eyes should be there, mostly, to catch things like leaving a word out here or there or homonyms or... mistakes. Specific mistakes that are due to putting the words on the paper. That is not, though, the function of editors, on the whole, within traditional publishing.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-60076177059477541492013-08-23T07:55:50.476-07:002013-08-23T07:55:50.476-07:00David: I'm not sure if being objective about y...David: I'm not sure if being objective about your work is necessary. I think you need to be able to be critical of your own work, but Lovecraft and Tolkien weren't objective about their own work. I think having a deep investment for own work is what is necessary to produce something that is truly -your own- work.<br /><br />Anne: I would like to agree with your assessment about editors, but the truth is that most editors (by far) are not specialists in their fields; they are just people with a BA in English and have no special qualifications. Really great editors are a different story, but they are as rare as really great authors.<br /><br />And I never said priests or whoever went into their profession for those reasons any more than any of those televangelists from the 80s went into that to make tons of money and cause scandals or the prosperity preachers of today went into it to get rich. BUT, and as I said that it's not all their fault, people go to them expecting "an answer" and don't want to think and, eventually, that's the way things are.<br /><br />I worked in and around churches for 20 years, I have a degree in theology, I went to school with dozens of ministerial students. The number of people in any sort of ministry that approach things with an actual "you need to be doing/learning this stuff for yourself and I'm just here to facilitate this" are so few that I can count them on a few fingers. Teachers are the same way. I've also been involved in a lot of teaching, and I've only encountered a few teachers that don't have the "I'm the teacher and I'm right" attitude.Andrew Leonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13964775673414653644noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-24898123023853961272013-08-23T05:01:47.092-07:002013-08-23T05:01:47.092-07:00I'm kinda a snob when it comes to Bible study....I'm kinda a snob when it comes to Bible study. Study inductively, or you might as well just have someone else tell you what it says. In our church, we read along with the pastor, and when he explains he's clearly giving his OPINION of the interpretation and always invites us to contact him to discuss it if we disagree. Which I have done and it was very fruitful.<br />As to the editor comparison, I'm with Alex, another set of eyes is really helpful, but those eyes shouldn't have to restructure your work or make major changes. If so, YOU haven't done YOUR job correctly.<br />Tina @ <a href="http://kmdlifeisgood.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Life is Good</a>Tinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08925730745204736744noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-2684523548829284822013-08-23T03:31:27.796-07:002013-08-23T03:31:27.796-07:00Well said, Anne.
I do think the author who can wri...Well said, Anne.<br />I do think the author who can write and self edit everything perfectly by himself doesn't exist. A second set of eyes is always necessary. As for editors, a good one is there to help. I enjoy working with my publisher's editor. Yes she finds the mistakes I've made, because we all make them, and she offers suggestions. <br />Our pastor's role is to guide us, and as Anne said, teach. And he is always telling us to get into the Word ourselves and discover God's word on our own.Alex J. Cavanaughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09770065693345181702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-12395271070745870662013-08-23T03:21:01.624-07:002013-08-23T03:21:01.624-07:00Editors are specialists in their field and a good ...Editors are specialists in their field and a good one can help an author take a piece of work that is marginal and make it a masterpiece. Such is the case with "To Kill a Mockingbird", one of the greatest works in American Literature. Without her editors, Harper Lee's novel would never have been published and would never have won the Pulitzer. This is not to say that an author should give up creative control, they shouldn't. <br /><br />Also you are giving priests, pastors and rabbi's very short shrift. They do not enter their profession in order to have "power" over people. They teach, they guide and they comfort. They encourage a person to understand what is in the Bible and how they can apply it to their own lives. Some people would say that teachers enjoy having "power" over their students. But to say that would be as ignorant as it is to generalize the role of the clergy.<br /><br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01681799401614263953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7658526372996117205.post-33263907837878488922013-08-23T00:39:50.029-07:002013-08-23T00:39:50.029-07:00Being a blogger, I will never have to deal with ed...Being a blogger, I will never have to deal with editors but sometimes I wouldn't mind having one. It is hard for me to be objective about what I write. The reason I say that is too often I will write something one day and the next think, "oh jeez." It would be nice to be able to say, "what do you think of this?" That said, I would never agree, at least I don't think so, to let someone else have the final authority.David Oliverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04260130060172457192noreply@blogger.com